2024 2100SE Radar mount

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Westerly Fluke Guy

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I am preparing to order a piece of Black King Starboard to bolt in place above the T-top supports under the black canvas to facilitate the radar dome install.
Can I get away with 1/2" for rigidity or should I go for 3/4?

Any install pics you guys might have would also be appreciated.
I will be putting an 18X Garmin Fantom up there and also want a short spacer to get it an inch or two above the canvas angled down a few degrees maybe.
Any links to spacers would be appreciated too.
 
Do NOT do that.
Take the boat to a tower shop. Peel the canvas back. Have alum supports / mounts welded in.

There are a LOT of stress's up there as the boat is bounding thru the seas.
 
I am preparing to order a piece of Black King Starboard to bolt in place above the T-top supports under the black canvas to facilitate the radar dome install.
Can I get away with 1/2" for rigidity or should I go for 3/4?

Any install pics you guys might have would also be appreciated.
I will be putting an 18X Garmin Fantom up there and also want a short spacer to get it an inch or two above the canvas angled down a few degrees maybe.
Any links to spacers would be appreciated too.
The wedges from ScanStrut are very nice units, if pricey. Wedge Mount for Power Boat

The mounting studs that the Fantom comes with are extremely long. I wouldn’t recommend leaving them poking through the bottom of the T-top. You can either cut them off, or I prefer to buy new hardware that is of the proper length. You’ll need to size the front and rear fasteners differently, based on the thickness of the wedge and the mounting surface; it’s easiest to do it when you have all the components in hand so you can gauge thickness.
 
Do NOT do that.
Take the boat to a tower shop. Peel the canvas back. Have alum supports / mounts welded in.

There are a LOT of stress's up there as the boat is bounding thru the seas.
There are aluminum supports up there independent of the actual T-top frame. They are clearly way to wide to accomplish mounting the dome.
 
Hi. I'm mech engineer.Just finished similar project for a friend's electronics upgrade on a cc dv t top. No idea if following helps or not. You can build this any way that works for your combo of equip. and existing layout of cross bars of your roof- just need to think it through structurally. Prev poster is absolutely correct in that the loads get high when you mount heavy stuff at this height, but it's not difficult cult to figure out a clean looking ng solution. Bolting can be stronger or weaker than welding and vice versa all depending upon the design. Welding tends to result in a clean OEM look and take less volume, but bolts and plates worked out great for us, and as I said, strength is a matter of design. Aluminum aircraft bodies are riveted not welded for a reason. Fasteners can have a certain degree of give whereas welds are extremely rigid and can crack. Same thing in a bridge, many joints bolted.

As far as starboard or any plastic structural member goes, it depends on the span and if there are existing members to which it will be fastened vs it spanning a large open area. I'd guess that if you are planning the plastic plate to span an open section of more than maybe 12 inch and it has the full load of a dome scanner and metal adapter stantion then I'd go to 3/4 thick. Remember that the stiffness or the amount of deflection increases alot when you make a plate thicker. Twice the thickness results in 8x less deflection, whereas if you double the width of the plate the deflection halves, all assuming the same load. That said, if the plate is under the canvas then the thicker it is the more likely, over time edges and corners will sever the canvas.

My friend bought a short metal angled adapter that sits between the dome and the t top frame. If I remember correctly the lower flange of that adapter had 4 holes which we carefully positioned and thru bolted existing cross members. The adapter sits on top of the canvas and he put silicone caulk between the canvas and the lower flange of the adapter at the locations where he drilled thru the canvas.

You MUST thi nk through any thru holes i n existing members because these will definitely compromise the strength of those members and lead to stress cracks eventually if not done carefully. Use smallest diameter, as few as possible and choose thru location carefully.

Another way to do it in a stronger way would have been to use the same adapter mounted over the canvas but NOT to drill thru cross members, rather fashion an interior plate that sits on the interior ceiling below the existing cross bars and then you clamp the adapter plate to the interior plate and effectively sandwich the existing members thereby avoiding drilling thru.

A third design is to solidly bolt the stb. Plate to the frame where the area of the plate can be cut to find strong mounting bolt locations to the frame and then the scan er and equip is easily bolted to that plate. For example, you run a long plate fully across the top, flexed and then fastened to the two pipes that run fore aft on either side of the top.
This allows mounting of multiple units like a pa, dome and gps unit which can then be situated at the exact place to give a nice look. This means more plate. In my friend's case he ended up mounting gps to the dome adapter unit, so did not really need such a big area plate. One major benefit of this approach is that if done cleverly, you can avoid any holes in the canvas. I avoid popping holes in a continuous barrier membrane like a t top if at all avoidable. Another downside is that the plate is visible since in that approach it sits over the canvas, but if color matches that of roof material it will look just fine in my opinion.

Definitely buy good sst bolts washers etc from a real supplier and figure out exact min adequate length as prev.poster said. A nice finish on interior is to use cap nuts, but to do that you got to really get the length spot on. A few extra washers can help. Life is way too short to go cutting sst. Bolts. It very tough stuff. Hacked protruding long bolts not spaced evenly are the best way to make it look like an amateur low budget aftermarket install. And dangerous if you're ever getting your head up there for maintenance

Hard to advise exactly without seeing your setup, etc. Every situation has unique elements and owner desires to consider.

If u post a pic or provide more details I'm happy to chime in if it's useful.

The other pia for us was making sure we could route the coax cable and wiring inside existing cross tube and then down one of the four uprights. It impacted the exact location and thru bolt locations.
 
One more general rule about tapped threads. A. Strength depends on the property of the material. Aluminum is quite soft and notorious for loose threads especially when using sst hardware. Generally you need at least one diameters worth of thread depth. So if you have a 3/8 diameter bolt thread you want at least 3/8 depth of good threads. In the case of pipes and tubes on my friends rig, the wall thicknesses of these members were like maybe 1/8 not even 1/4 inc. that means max diameter threaded is like 1/8 diameter , ok for a horn or something but probably not much more load like in a dome antenna etc.
 
Has this 2024 boat been built as of present? If not, simply have the factory design the t top to accommodate a radar dome. Any t top fabricator will weld a radar plate in for $100....during the t top build. Keep it simple!
 
Hi. I'm mech engineer.Just finished similar project for a friend's electronics upgrade on a cc dv t top. No idea if following helps or not. You can build this any way that works for your combo of equip. and existing layout of cross bars of your roof- just need to think it through structurally. Prev poster is absolutely correct in that the loads get high when you mount heavy stuff at this height, but it's not difficult cult to figure out a clean looking ng solution. Bolting can be stronger or weaker than welding and vice versa all depending upon the design. Welding tends to result in a clean OEM look and take less volume, but bolts and plates worked out great for us, and as I said, strength is a matter of design. Aluminum aircraft bodies are riveted not welded for a reason. Fasteners can have a certain degree of give whereas welds are extremely rigid and can crack. Same thing in a bridge, many joints bolted.

As far as starboard or any plastic structural member goes, it depends on the span and if there are existing members to which it will be fastened vs it spanning a large open area. I'd guess that if you are planning the plastic plate to span an open section of more than maybe 12 inch and it has the full load of a dome scanner and metal adapter stantion then I'd go to 3/4 thick. Remember that the stiffness or the amount of deflection increases alot when you make a plate thicker. Twice the thickness results in 8x less deflection, whereas if you double the width of the plate the deflection halves, all assuming the same load. That said, if the plate is under the canvas then the thicker it is the more likely, over time edges and corners will sever the canvas.

My friend bought a short metal angled adapter that sits between the dome and the t top frame. If I remember correctly the lower flange of that adapter had 4 holes which we carefully positioned and thru bolted existing cross members. The adapter sits on top of the canvas and he put silicone caulk between the canvas and the lower flange of the adapter at the locations where he drilled thru the canvas.

You MUST thi nk through any thru holes i n existing members because these will definitely compromise the strength of those members and lead to stress cracks eventually if not done carefully. Use smallest diameter, as few as possible and choose thru location carefully.

Another way to do it in a stronger way would have been to use the same adapter mounted over the canvas but NOT to drill thru cross members, rather fashion an interior plate that sits on the interior ceiling below the existing cross bars and then you clamp the adapter plate to the interior plate and effectively sandwich the existing members thereby avoiding drilling thru.

A third design is to solidly bolt the stb. Plate to the frame where the area of the plate can be cut to find strong mounting bolt locations to the frame and then the scan er and equip is easily bolted to that plate. For example, you run a long plate fully across the top, flexed and then fastened to the two pipes that run fore aft on either side of the top.
This allows mounting of multiple units like a pa, dome and gps unit which can then be situated at the exact place to give a nice look. This means more plate. In my friend's case he ended up mounting gps to the dome adapter unit, so did not really need such a big area plate. One major benefit of this approach is that if done cleverly, you can avoid any holes in the canvas. I avoid popping holes in a continuous barrier membrane like a t top if at all avoidable. Another downside is that the plate is visible since in that approach it sits over the canvas, but if color matches that of roof material it will look just fine in my opinion.

Definitely buy good sst bolts washers etc from a real supplier and figure out exact min adequate length as prev.poster said. A nice finish on interior is to use cap nuts, but to do that you got to really get the length spot on. A few extra washers can help. Life is way too short to go cutting sst. Bolts. It very tough stuff. Hacked protruding long bolts not spaced evenly are the best way to make it look like an amateur low budget aftermarket install. And dangerous if you're ever getting your head up there for maintenance

Hard to advise exactly without seeing your setup, etc. Every situation has unique elements and owner desires to consider.

If u post a pic or provide more details I'm happy to chime in if it's useful.

The other pia for us was making sure we could route the coax cable and wiring inside existing cross tube and then down one of the four uprights. It impacted the exact location and thru bolt locations.
I will be doing something exactly along the lines of your described methods. Still in the planning, measuring, and thinking stage. I will post a picture in the next day or two. I didn't intend to be abrupt to the poster insisting on welding I simply am not taking a brand new boat from the showroom to peeling off the canvas top and getting into all that. I may even contact Parker and see if I can determine who makes these T-top frames and possibly get some shop drawings of the roof section. As you might guess the top is curved and the two flat pieces of aluminum the fabricator provided are in line with that arc.
 
Hi. I'm mech engineer.Just finished similar project for a friend's electronics upgrade on a cc dv t top. No idea if following helps or not. You can build this any way that works for your combo of equip. and existing layout of cross bars of your roof- just need to think it through structurally. Prev poster is absolutely correct in that the loads get high when you mount heavy stuff at this height, but it's not difficult cult to figure out a clean looking ng solution. Bolting can be stronger or weaker than welding and vice versa all depending upon the design. Welding tends to result in a clean OEM look and take less volume, but bolts and plates worked out great for us, and as I said, strength is a matter of design. Aluminum aircraft bodies are riveted not welded for a reason. Fasteners can have a certain degree of give whereas welds are extremely rigid and can crack. Same thing in a bridge, many joints bolted.

As far as starboard or any plastic structural member goes, it depends on the span and if there are existing members to which it will be fastened vs it spanning a large open area. I'd guess that if you are planning the plastic plate to span an open section of more than maybe 12 inch and it has the full load of a dome scanner and metal adapter stantion then I'd go to 3/4 thick. Remember that the stiffness or the amount of deflection increases alot when you make a plate thicker. Twice the thickness results in 8x less deflection, whereas if you double the width of the plate the deflection halves, all assuming the same load. That said, if the plate is under the canvas then the thicker it is the more likely, over time edges and corners will sever the canvas.

My friend bought a short metal angled adapter that sits between the dome and the t top frame. If I remember correctly the lower flange of that adapter had 4 holes which we carefully positioned and thru bolted existing cross members. The adapter sits on top of the canvas and he put silicone caulk between the canvas and the lower flange of the adapter at the locations where he drilled thru the canvas.

You MUST thi nk through any thru holes i n existing members because these will definitely compromise the strength of those members and lead to stress cracks eventually if not done carefully. Use smallest diameter, as few as possible and choose thru location carefully.

Another way to do it in a stronger way would have been to use the same adapter mounted over the canvas but NOT to drill thru cross members, rather fashion an interior plate that sits on the interior ceiling below the existing cross bars and then you clamp the adapter plate to the interior plate and effectively sandwich the existing members thereby avoiding drilling thru.

A third design is to solidly bolt the stb. Plate to the frame where the area of the plate can be cut to find strong mounting bolt locations to the frame and then the scan er and equip is easily bolted to that plate. For example, you run a long plate fully across the top, flexed and then fastened to the two pipes that run fore aft on either side of the top.
This allows mounting of multiple units like a pa, dome and gps unit which can then be situated at the exact place to give a nice look. This means more plate. In my friend's case he ended up mounting gps to the dome adapter unit, so did not really need such a big area plate. One major benefit of this approach is that if done cleverly, you can avoid any holes in the canvas. I avoid popping holes in a continuous barrier membrane like a t top if at all avoidable. Another downside is that the plate is visible since in that approach it sits over the canvas, but if color matches that of roof material it will look just fine in my opinion.

Definitely buy good sst bolts washers etc from a real supplier and figure out exact min adequate length as prev.poster said. A nice finish on interior is to use cap nuts, but to do that you got to really get the length spot on. A few extra washers can help. Life is way too short to go cutting sst. Bolts. It very tough stuff. Hacked protruding long bolts not spaced evenly are the best way to make it look like an amateur low budget aftermarket install. And dangerous if you're ever getting your head up there for maintenance

Hard to advise exactly without seeing your setup, etc. Every situation has unique elements and owner desires to consider.

If u post a pic or provide more details I'm happy to chime in if it's useful.

The other pia for us was making sure we could route the coax cable and wiring inside existing cross tube and then down one of the four uprights. It impacted the exact location and thru bolt locations.
Not to derail but since I have a mechanical engineer who has some experience in structural bolting, I am currently finishing a wheelhouse build and through bolting it to my console with 3/16 SS carriage bolts backed with a plate. The Parker 1801 console is beefy but I don’t believe it’s through bolted to the deck.

I’m going to back up the carriage bolts inside the console with a milt steel backing plate to spread the load. My understanding is the carriage bolts are stronger that’s regular bolts since the square neck is embedded in the substrate and is more structural than a regular bolt.

I have already made the mounting holes and utilized the original holes that secured the windscreen. It’s glassed and ply cored and is solid at this location. The house is roughly 100 lbs but still needs laminate glass windows. I temp fastened it with the screws from windscreen and it was strong I was able to do a pull-up off the roof and it didn’t budge. I overbuilt the the house with a lot of glass and 2 layers of 1708 inside and I can stand on the roof no issues.

My only concern is ripping the console off the deck or the house from the console, don’t want to glass it in case I ever sell the hull I want it to be reversible so through bolting was my decision. I am planning on bedding the bottom edge with 4200 and bolting it once in ready and it’s painted.

Do you think this is going to be a structural issue or should I plan to reinforce the console and make a better deck to console connection here?

Apologies if I have derailed, this seemed like a perfect opportunity to ask since it’s similar principle and considerations….
 

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Nice work on that house. I'm sure you'll figure something out.

I'd definitely ask around and do some research on the net. I just hit " diy boat building best attach pilot house console" and a raft of stuff came up. How is it done typically?

My guess is that the highest applied loads are going to be from the height of that, rather than it's dead weight. I just looked up a wind force calculator online and put in some rough numbers and came up with about 40 pounds being applied to the top of the windshield. Now you have to sanity check that but I figured 40 knots combined wind load running speed and or wind, 10 square feet of area on the front face and assume the front face is perpendicular to the wind. Calculator came up with about 40 pounds. Feels maybe light, but let's continue. Say the distance from the deck up to the top where you apply the 40 lbs. is 10 feet, then the rotational moment is 40 x 10 or 400 foot lbs.
Then take a narrowest stance dimension at the base deck level is say 3 feet and divide that into 400 and it means that the upwards pull out force attempting to pull the console off the deck at the perimeter of the console base is like 400/3 or say 150 lbs. That's really not that much. Try to ask your self if that jives with your gut. It feels like to me so go back and see if my assumptions are wrong or off. Most just scale, so if you do 40 knots dead into 40 knot wind then it doubles and if no other changes then pullout is 300 lbs.

The other and maybe more severe loading is impulse, say the house jerks back and forth, those can be higher. Not nonetheless you start to get a sense for what will happen and where the narrowest stance is. The joint between console and house is about the same stance as that of console to deck, but the joint is higher up by maybe half so the load is half.

Your instinct to spread the load makes alot of sense. SST bolts are strong.5/16 might start to yield at 1100 pounds so easily holds 50 to 100 lbs. You have 4 bolts and your load of say 300 pounds /4 bts. U r fine. The bigger issue is the thin fiberglass flange. What this says to me is that one way to make these joints alot stronger is to add some material to translate the pullout load into shear. So one possibility is to add a thin white stainless plate across the front or across the joint or even in the inside. It adds a ton of strength but you would need to add holes above and below the joint and use nice hardware. Maybe 3 pieces inside the three corners somehow... or add a glass apron to the front bottom of the house or a thing n sst painted white plate. Detracts from finished look big adds structure. Lmk if u want a sketch. Post some close ups of the console top flange. How thick is the glass 1/4 inch? What is the condition? How much width and area is there.


BTW id think carefully about carriage bolts. The strength of the bolt or head is not that important as I just went through, especially when you divide by a higher number. Carriage bolts will shred the fiberglass unless the square is engaged and n the metal plate and you plan to use two plates one on top and then on bottom m of the joint. If they are interior and not seen then I st use hex bts and lock washers and torque them normally. If you need to see the head, then get socket dome head oversize or even Philips round head. BTW. Sometimes on boats and planes it's better to design in some give as opposed to a Ridgid connection. You let the fastening system absorb impact loads as opposed to transferring 100 pct. If the forces intj the weak link which is the fiberglass. Maybe it makes sense to add a 1/8 rubber string between the two flanges... there are some nice marine and industrial clamps designed just for this sort of stuff, but they tend to be pricey, so only really pay off in situations where u need to take things apart more frequently.

The console to deck is more challenging because it's joined at 90deg. and no way to get undec the deck. How is the console fastened originally? I figure it's fully glassed, but I'd also guess it was fastened first. Alog of folks more experienc d here should know all that. I've seen many guys ripping up the console to access tank. There is a d ceng chance that it's totally strong compared to the new d joint console to t top, but the loads are twice. Remember that tne glass deck to console corner joint is 100 pct continuous, so the pullout loads are distributed by the entire width dimension. Say it's 36 for inches just to say. Then 360 pounds pullout gives 10 lbs per inch. I'd bet there is an oil interior flange that is maybe s red tapped into the deck then glassed over , just a guess. Nonetheless one possibility is to build a decent console to house joint. Bolt it up like you did already and get a feel for where the loads concentrate. Tie a rope around the top and try to tie the other end to a tree and trust the rope taught to see where it starts to bend or something.

Sorry for the long note but this is how I have to think about a question like that. I'm sure lot of guys just use gut instinct, but I always run these sorts of rough numbers. They help me zone in on what matters and what does not. The more I'm running it through, he more I think you're probably fine with some good bolt patterns backed by metal. My gut would be to use maybe 1/4 x 1 1/2 alumninum strips , that actually have some stiffness themselves. Use maybe one continuous strip and maybe one on top and one on bottom clamping a piece of rubber in the seam with sst hex bolts. You may be better off with a higher number of 1/4 bolts, but hard to know all this without seeing anything, could be overkill or way off base I don't know . Rig it up. Take it on the water and see what happens. If it were me I'd try my best to stage this where you get the basic house with windows bolted on then take her for a spin. Test and refine the structure then paint, outfit etc. Anytime you can with a project like this you never regret trying stuff out as soon as you can half baked even if it's a pia. Things just come out alot better and cleaner and there will be things you didn't even think of. Hope that's some help not sure. Feel free to ask more online or reach me somehow.

Another idea, if it were me. Not sure how you plan to fasten and seal the windows or what they are made of, but to me, that is as important if not alot more than the structural joints. Hand cut plexiglass in hand cut ply glass, and finished with rubber or plastic bent strip makes the whole thing look like, well just that. Is there a better way without paying a ton? Do any open close? I'd put some design into those details, again if it were me. MB
 
The Fantom 18 dome is not a particularly heavy item. Its advertised weight is 14lbs. You’re also not going to be able to cut threads into a mounting plate and through bolt it- the dome has threaded inserts built into the bottom of it, so you’ll have to through bolt it using either the provided studs and nuts, or properly sized hardware running through your mounting surface and into the threaded inserts in the dome.

The way you’re proposing isn’t really the preferred way of doing it, but it’s your boat, so do what works for you. I have a hard time believing that a 14lb dome is going to generate enough force on its own to pull four bolts with fender washers through 3/4” Starboard. If you’re gonna do it, get a 3/4” plastic piece, round the edges with a router so they don’t shred the t-top canvas, countersink the bolt holes for the same reason, through bolt the plastic to the plates, and through bolt the radar onto the plate. See if it works. If not, you’ll just have to take it to a top shop like warthog suggests, but at least you gave it a shot.
 
The Fantom 18 dome is not a particularly heavy item. Its advertised weight is 14lbs. You’re also not going to be able to cut threads into a mounting plate and through bolt it- the dome has threaded inserts built into the bottom of it, so you’ll have to through bolt it using either the provided studs and nuts, or properly sized hardware running through your mounting surface and into the threaded inserts in the dome.

The way you’re proposing isn’t really the preferred way of doing it, but it’s your boat, so do what works for you. I have a hard time believing that a 14lb dome is going to generate enough force on its own to pull four bolts with fender washers through 3/4” Starboard. If you’re gonna do it, get a 3/4” plastic piece, round the edges with a router so they don’t shred the t-top canvas, countersink the bolt holes for the same reason, through bolt the plastic to the plates, and through bolt the radar onto the plate. See if it works. If not, you’ll just have to take it to a top shop like warthog suggests, but at least you gave it a shot.
My Parker Dealer has done a dozen or more just the way I am planning on doing it. They stopped having their installers weld stuff because on a brand new t-top frame it looks like absolute hack garbage as I saw one of those too. It looked like a burned in piece of raw aluminum.
There will be two layers of King Starboard, the second layer will be under the dome and the canvas adding just a slight rise to the canvas, A 4 degree wedge will be above the canvas and the whole thing sandwiches together nicely. Both layers of the Starboard will be rounded to a 1/4" radius on a router table ( in my woodworking shop) like I've done to teak, mahogony, oak, and a dozen other hardwoods. The installations I just saw a couple of days ago down on the dealers dock where they also run a marina were probably strong enough for me to stand on the dome if the dome actually would take it.
Seems like there is a clear mindset on what is the right way to do this on this forum with little creativity. Have you read the previous post from the mechanical engineer? Seems to me that welding has zero forgiveness and may not be the cats meow everyone thinks it is.
Has anyone giving this advice actually seen a 2023-2024 t-top frame a provided by Parker? There are two flat pieces of aluminum welded in from the factory 22" apart that are there just for this purpose and to add an electronics box to the rig.
Take a double layer of 1/2" Starboard and try flexing or bending it.

Why did I even ask?

I'm out.
 
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