End of season Questions

[shawnee83]

I'm trying to follow all the cables to connections but can't quite make them all out. By the way, do you have a windless? Asking because of the breaker and I usually see that on set up with a windless. Looking forward to hearing a good explanation from one of our resident electrical gurus. Glad you were able to figure out the pic posting, this should help greatly with assistance.

 

[school skipper]

No windless... and yes, lots of wiring for sure.
Boat came with a stereo with amplifier and a Raymarine C120w/TM transducer.. I added my Lowrance HDS 7 and radar along with a TH transducer with sonar hub to run the chirp
Other than that, everything else is stock.. Nav lights, Cabin dome light, Cockpit lighting, cockpit Spot, windshield wipers, i-com radio, horn and raw water wash down. All of this with the exception of the auto bilge switch is on the house ON/OFF switch and are all dead when in the OFF position..

Pulled Batteries today and brought them to my local dealer.. They are going to recharge, test and let them sit for 5 days on the shelf then re-test. The newer one was completely drained and the year old one was very low.. They have been privy to my situation from the beginning and think that there is something drawing them down. The auto bilge float switch is what there thinking.. even more so as I did notice once during the season that it was not activating but after manually flipping it a few times it began working again.. Will have to wait and see.. I trailer the boat so if they give the thumbs up to the batteries, I'll throw them back in and disconnect the auto-float and see if there's a change.. Stay Tuned...!

 

[rwp48]

The Perko and the Guest switches are obviously incompatible! Clearly, you can't mix switch manufacturers.

Seriously tho, is the On-Off switch the start battery and the 1-2-Both switch for the house battery with the Both switch the crossover to combine the batteries? If so, what is gained by that complexity? We have a single 1-2-Both switch managing the batteries. I normally run the boat on the Both position, which charges both batteries while we run. If we were going to be doing something that would draw the batteries down, I can switch to either the 1 or 2 position to isolate them and reserve on for starting.
I don't see what is gained by your switching arrangement. IMHO, it is unnecessarily complex.

 

[shawnee83]

Randy, I'm feeling better based on your explanation as that is how I thought the switch system and thus charging system worked. My routine is to start on my start and run on that battery for 20 or so minutes then switch over to number 2 after that. Basically I try to manually manage the charging and to always keep one of my battery's isolated and charged so I know I always have a good start battery. I only use one of them (usually #2)for the house side while hanging out and for overnight at the dock so if I draw it down I have a good start ready to go. This is also why want to instal a battery charger as when I leave the dock after an overnight, I want to know they are both topped off and ready to go. Also for maintaining and longer life hopefully? I just don't understand the double battery switch set up?

 

[school skipper]

The ON/OFF Perko is for house power and the Guest switch is for starting... Having a set up like you is exactly what I had in my old boat and I can't agree with you more about the unnecessary complexity of this set up.. That being said, I really haven't gained a solid understanding of the set up? As it was explained to me, Battery #1 is for starting and battery 2 is for the house (electronics).. When the motor is running, both batteries get charged all the time (even if selector is on #1). When you stop to anchor and turn motor off, the electronics now have a fully charged battery to draw from. If For some reason 1 does not start the motor, you can turn selector to #2 or BOTH to draw extra juice to start??? In line Circiut breaker to provide surge protection to elecectronics and wiring
What I know is that if..
Guest is OFF and Perko OFF -- NO power to motor / NO power to electronics
Guest set to 1, 2 or BOTH, Perko OFF-- Motor has power/ NO electronics
Guest OFF and Perko ON -- NO Motor/ Electronics ON

 

[rwp48]

I think I would take this opportunity to rewire your batteries, eliminating the On-Off switch. Load test the batteries and reinstall or replace them if they fail the test. West Marine has a good article on simple battery systems at: http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/I ... nd-Battery

Your stereo is likely providing a parasitic draw and there may be other devices too.

A three-stage marine charger capable of charging multiple banks of batteries will help keep your batteries in tip top condition.

Finally, the bilge pump should be wired directly to the battery so it can't be turned off.

 

[school skipper]

Rwp48,

I did check that web page out last night and upon a litttle more digging found this site with install video.. This set up seems to achomplish what I think mine is suppose to be doing but in a much more simplified way! The video gets cut short but if you sign in with a first name and email address you can access the complete video. Copy and past below address in you search bar. As far as the bilge pump, in it wired directly however there seems to be a connection problem within the wiring.. Bottom line is that I have an issue somewhere with the parastatic draw somewhere!..? Hey Shawnee83, Make sure to give this video a look...

http://www.offcenterharbor.com/videos/b ... ery-system

 

[shawnee83]

Thanks for this info RWP and School. I think School has something drawing on his batteries and possibly the combination set up on the charging side without a combiner/ACR is causing an issue with the different batteries? This thread is good timing for me as I'm going to be doing a battery charger instal, moving my starboard start battery to the Port jump seat and my house battery down to the bilge and changing it to a 200AH AGM. Both will be AGM's but the start will be the Optima D34M 55AH that I purchased in the spring and the new house will be a Vmax XTR4D 200AH. School's revisions here may be some of what I will need to do as well. Looking forward to you figuring this out for me guys and of course School to find his issue.

 

[rwp48]

Hi Shawnee!
I forgot about the OffCenterHarbor video. That's a neat setup although it does add expense to the project. But hey, we don't do this to save money, do we!

Be very careful mixing AGM and flooded cell batteries. If the topic isn't confusing enough, you need to be aware that different batteries have different charging profiles. To oversimplify the subject, if you charge at the proper rate for AGMs your flooded cell battery will never be completely charged. If you set up a charger to match the flooded battery profile you will over-charge the AGMs. (Bulk charging rates are in the 14-14.5v range)

I have a more complex 12v system on my trawler. We have owned the boat for 15 years and lived aboard full time for ten. We have half a dozen AGM batteries, a combiner and an inverter-charger with a Link 2000R controller to manage the whole thing. We often live on the hook for a month at a time in the Keys or Bahamas. The system is well thought out and properly managed and we typically get nine years out of a bank of batteries.
Clearly, this kind of a setup is WAY overkill for our Parkers but the message is that it's possible to have a durable, reliable 12v system on our boats with a bit of planing.

Best of luck!

 

[shawnee83]

Thanks Randy. I have been reading up on all of this and I hear ya about the charger. I'm going to be installing the Promariner Pronautic 1220P which is supposed to be able to set separate profiles for each bank? At least that's what I think anyway. Going to switch out the current house lead acid with that Vmax 200AH AGM when I do the charger etc all at the same time. Don't want to hijack Schools thread here but I hope to pick up some tips on the switching etc.. here and of course hope you chime in when I get to my instal likely in Jan as you obviously have a handle on this stuff.

 

[school skipper]

Hey Shawnee,
No such thing as hijacking a thread here... All great Dialog and feedback that benefits us all!.. A great site with very knowledgeable people willing to go out of their way to help out! Thanks to all those who offered up their advise!
Going to continue trouble shooting this weekend trying to resolve issues with current set up. If I can't, I'll be looking at changing out the switch set up during the winter and be ready for next season..
Good luck on your end!

 

[warthog5]

Let me Start by saying I like Blue Seas products and I use a Lot of them...... BUT.... I don't like the "Add A Battery".

You don't have a dedicated House battery with it and the install has cables running all over the place, which looks like Crap!

Blue Seas :

I've installed 26 BEP Cluster Switches now, in single and twin conflagrations.


BEP:

And here is how it works.

BEP Cluster Switch.

You start your day by turning the Start switch and the House switch to ON.
At the end of the day you turn them both OFF.

It doesn't get any simpler than that. You don't have to remember to turn from Batt 1 when going out and switch to Batt 2 on the way back in. Just something else that you have to remember.

OK so what goes on with it is done all automatically thru the VSR [Voltage Sensitive Relay]

The Relay is in a closed position. As soon as you hit the key to crank the motor the relay opens, due to sensing a large surge of current.

Ok the motor is cranked and running now. The relay is still open. The Alt is charging the Start battery until it reaches a set voltage and charge.

Then the relay closes and is back charging Both the Start & House Battery.

Now another feature that happened when you hit the key is your electronics were ON and wired from the House battery. This will stop any spiking of the Electronics. They don't like to be spiked!

OK...Now your out sitting on the beach. The motor is OFF, but you have the Radio playing for hours. The Relay senses the drop and opens the relay again. The radio is still playing, but the relay just disconnected the Start battery out of the circuit so that it stays at Full charge to start the motor.

When you get ready to leave the beach and crank the motor the alt will charge the Start battery first and when it's back up, the relay will close and charge the House battery.

There is one more switch on the Cluster. It is the Combine switch. Think of that as Jumper Cables without having to dig them out and hook them up. This switch would normally be in the OFF position, until you need a boost on the start battery. Then turn it to ON. After the motor is running turn it back OFF.

Everything is all Automatic. No thinking about it. Your batteries will have a much better charge in them.

The unit pictured above is just slightly larger than a Perko switch. So it doesn't take up much room and takes a LOT less room than the Blue Seas version. It looks cleaner too, due to the cables that are needed on the Blue Seas version.

 

[Megabyte]

Excellent explanation Bobby.

 

[rwp48]

Hi Warthog!
Boy that's a lot of wire! Is this an unusually high load installation? Never seen one wired with the 35a and 100a breakers.

Your comments about the AAB switch and relay are contrary to what BlueSeas says their product does. Their documentation all claims that: 1)you do have separate house and start batteries, & 2)the batteries are isolated unless there is charging voltage present & 3)when charging voltage drops off the relay disconnects. I have a similar but different BS charger relay on my diesel trawler and that is consistent with my experience. Are you saying that the AAB system doesn't work as advertised?

Finally, you are correct...those electronics don't like voltage spikes. That is why I try to remember to turn my electronics off before shutting down..."try to remember" being the operative words!

 

[warthog5]

Hi Warthog!
Boy that's a lot of wire! Is this an unusually high load installation? Never seen one wired with the 35a and 100a breakers.

I know nothing about that setup.... It's just a pix of Blue Seas "Add a Battery" that I found on the interweb.


I stand corrected. This is a different Master switch than the norm. It looks the same as the Perko's on the front side.

But you still have the cables running all over the place..... The BEP is cleaner and it's simpler.

 

[jpg1969]

That

I know nothing about that setup.... It's just a pix of Blue Seas "Add a Battery" that I found on the interweb.

That install from interweb is mine. It follows the BlueSeas instructions (The 35A are to protect the wires from overcharging if there's a failure voltage regulator - probably overkill, yes, but as recommended by BlueSeas. They (one for each battery) match the max output from my former OX66 charging amps and you can see them labeled in the diagram Warthog posted above). The 100 amp breaker is the main shown in the top left of the diagram. I am fussy but I am not bothered by the "extra" wires from an aesthetic standpoint. I can also say Add-A-Battery has worked flawlessly thus far with my OX66 and current F300.

 

[rwp48]

Thanks Warthog! I was getting worried about BS.

What is the name of the manufacturer in your photo?

And on the topic of voltage spikes, I believe that since the relay doesn't open until the start battery reaches charge voltage, electronics hooked to the house battery shouldn't be subject to a voltage surge at start up.

 

[shawnee83]

Wart, Thanks for your very good explanation of the BEP Cluster switches. I've seen yours on your project pics but never quite understood what was going on with the function. Anyway, I went to the BEP site and looked at the product and at the diagram for the instal and noticed they show an optional fuse link between the DC panel and the Cluster switch and another one between the house battery and the cluster switch. Is that the optional fuse in question I'm seeing in your pic on the left of the cluster switch and can I assume you also recommend using both of them (panel and house battery)in the instal? I really like the simplicity of the set up and the automatic functionality of the charging and isolation of the start. Also the very cool simple set up of putting both batteries in parallel for emergency jump start/power. When I get into my battery and charger project next month I think I'm going to instal this set up. REALLY loving the idea of not having to manually manage my charging and isolation as I have done for years. Thanks!

 

[warthog5]

Yes..... In that pix..... I do NOT install the CB between the Battery & Cluster

I do install a [usually 50amp] CB between the Cluster & Switch panel. It's usually 6in to 8in after the Cluster.

What is the name of the manufacturer in your photo?

And on the topic of voltage spikes, I believe that since the relay doesn't open until the start battery reaches charge voltage, electronics hooked to the house battery shouldn't be subject to a voltage surge at start up.

The Pix's are BEP single clusters........That schematic is of the Blue Seas Add A battery.

On the BEP.....The relay is Closed......As soon as you hit the Key it opens, as it sences a mad rush of current for the starter.

So it's disconnected from the House battery, which is where your electronics are getting their Power from and there is no dip in Voltage supplied to Spike your electronics.

 

[warthog5]

Here's one that was on a 32ft Center console. The wiring wasn't finished in the pix, but the panel was filled, smoothed, Gellcoated and recut for the BEP twin engine cluster [flush mounted]

Here's one on a 30ft CC twin engine. [flush mounted]

This one is on a 19 Cape horn CC . The small fuse holder is to supply power to the float switch