To kicker or to get a bigger Parker

[Harpoon]

I have a 2510 DV. On 2 occasions the weather service was off about by about 25 kts of wind and 45 degrees on direction and I found myself in 40+ kts of wind over a big fetch of water.

I had green water all over the bow and the windsheild while making 4-5 kts. I cant imagine loosing power in a situation like this. I'm pretty sure I would have rolled right over.

Accesing and dawning survival suits would have been nearly impossible. Depolying the raft when it is attached to the hardtop, probably impossible in those conditions. I'm not sure sarting a kicker would have been possible or had enough bite to hold my bow int the waves.

These are not 100mile offshore boats. Dont venture too far unless the forcast is 100 % solid. Be sure the wind direction and speeds are exactly what was forcasted...otherwise change your plan.

That is my .02 after 10 years with my parker

 

[Phil]

Harpoon, something tells me that Shackleton would love to have a 25’ Parker over his 22 ½ boat in the 600+ mile voyage in gale force winds. When I was heading into the seas, it took all my effort to make sure I don’t turn sideways—never mind putting on my survival suit. But as soon as I turned down seas, I had plenty of time to don the suit and get out the valise raft. Eventually I felt confident enough to even take naps.

Why is that? Lets take surfing as an extreme example. An average surfboard is 10’ long and people have surfed safely on 10’, 20’, and even 50’ waves-that’s a ratio of 1:1 to 1:5 times the length of the board. On a 25’ boat, a 1:1 ratio would be 25’ waves, a 1:2 ratio would be 50’ waves, you get the picture. All the surfer is doing is going DOWN SEAS. How is it that a surfboard without power can stay in front of a 4-5 knot wave? It all has to do with physics. In order for a wave to move forward, all the water in front of it including everything in the water has to also move forward. That is why by the time a big wave crashes down, the boat going down seas will move forward just enough so the majority of the wave “misses” the boat. That is why I feel confident that it is safe to go down seas in seas up to the length of the boat.

 

[Phil]

Good discussion, it really depends of the size/ferocity of the waves relative to the boat’s size. In my case, I was in 6’ to 8’ 4 to 5 second seas. I was comfortable enough to put the engine in neutral and take naps. If the seas were more threatening, I would have tried to match the speed of the waves-4 to 5 knots. This means that the safety threshold for my boat was much higher (waves\ height.) I’m talking about the Parker pilothouse. Different boats behave differently. A keeled boat would act squirrelly in following seas and be not as safe. A quote in a textbook cannot cover every possible boat characteristics and sea conditions.

 

[Phil]

Lol, I’m still here Bubba. I know it goes against conventional wisdom and you are voicing opinion that some other are too nice and polite to speak up. I still stand by my experience. I suggest that some of you go out in 3’ to 5’, which is rough but not dangerous, and head into the seas then drift down the seas and make your own observations.

 

[Phil]

Not to beat a dead horse but it just occurred to me that Harpoon’s scenario was very similar to mine, only he decided to head into the seas and I went down seas. According to his account, his margin for error was very tight and if he loses power he would have “rolled right over.” He was also not in a position to put on his survival suit and using a kicker to head into the seas was not possible. In my case, after heading down seas, I was able to put on my survival suit and prepare my liferaft for deployment. My margin for error was much higher. If my main engine die, my kicker would have worked very well going down seas.

 

[Harpoon]

That was my worry. My bow was digging deeply into the side of steep waves. running down them would seem to be suicide. If I had turned into the trough I think my hard top would have been in the adjacent waves.

But who knows......perhaps I would have been fine riding the troughs but it flies in the face of my experience, reading and training.

How shackleton, or the crew of the Essex ever survived is amazing and probably a result of a low center of gravity/soaked partially filled wooden boat.

Perhaps the waves your were riding weren't steep...

If the weather says NW at 15 and it is actually N at 20-25 when you set out stay close....

 

[Phil]

No, the waves were true 6' to 8's. If you ever talk to Mark Poirier aka CMP ask him about it, he'll tell you the story. It seems counter-intuitive but try it out in 3' to 5's--then extrapolate. This is my tactic everytime it gets rough. If it get 4' to 6', unless the bite is on, I stop fishing and drift down seas without a care...

 

[Harpoon]

Nothing like being scared to get back on your boat !

 

[Phil]

LOL, baby steps Phil, baby steps... Boats can handle the seas much more than most people can. That's why you often hear stories of people abandoning ship convinced that the boat will go under only to find the boat hundreds of miles away still floating--and some of the people that went in the water didn't make it.

 

[Wicho]

I have a 23' DV.. with the HT 9.9 Kicker. In Miami..
Drop me a line- i'll take you for a spin.

Been to most of the bahamas.. and a kicker or second engine is nice but not necessary. Boat US has a station in most of the big islands. I'v been to a few remote ones, been stuck on there too and most often, outboard help is fairly easy to get.

I do 6 knots easy on that 9.9... and its rigged to my batteries and gas tank.

See ya guys!
wp.

 

[Jersey Jim]

....
Lets take surfing as an extreme example. An average surfboard is 10’ long and people have surfed safely on 10’, 20’, and even 50’ waves-that’s a ratio of 1:1 to 1:5 times the length of the board. On a 25’ boat, a 1:1 ratio would be 25’ waves, a 1:2 ratio would be 50’ waves, you get the picture. All the surfer is doing is going DOWN SEAS. How is it that a surfboard without power can stay in front of a 4-5 knot wave? It all has to do with physics.

Speaking strictly of proportions, a surfboards ratio of height vs. width would be similar to a Parker with a beam of 50' wide or more, and a LOA of hundreds of feet. The center of gravity between the two examples is not exactly apples to apples. Nonetheless, an interesting thread, and if caught in just the right situation with few options, I'm sure many will recall the details of this thread, and maybe even implement them.

 

[Phil]

Jim, you’re making my point whether you intended to or not. In other words, a surf board has 2” freeboard and can hold about 500lbs afloat—as opposed to a 23’ Parker with +2’ freeboard and about +5000lbs capacity. The safest way for a surfer to get back to shore is to lie flat on the board and paddle down seas toward land. Instead, he stands up and surf almost parallel (beam to) to a breaking wave in order to score points. So yes, a 23’ boat would seem like a 100’ ship in terms of safety to a surfer’s risk tolerance.

 

[MaxOut]

Just for humor I have to comment. There are many major flaws in your Parker/Surfboard comparison and the one major one is the SKEG. The skeg or skeg's of your outboards are no were near comparable to a surf board and play a vital role in keeping you in the direction you desire. Oh and lets see you try to lean your Parker into position....Not Going to Happen. Last time I was riding a surf board I remember lots of water coming over the tail and 80% of my weight over the tail but my pilot house (and were I will be in 8' waves) is in the front. How many surf boards are you going to find on the bottom of the ocean?

On Topic- GO BIGGER and do not skimp on safety equipment.

As far as safety I personally think a kicker is a waste of money and would feel safer with a life raft, beacon, Sat phone and $1000.00 worth of maintenance money. Even though I was brought to shore with a kicker when on a friends boat. My advice would be twin motors, fuel tanks and batteries. Keep everything separate and make sure you go big as big as you can on engines so you can plane on one. As mentioned here before a kicker is good in calm seas but so is an emergency beacon or a Sat phone. I love my Parker but would ditch it in a second if she was heading down and circumstances dictated. Thats why I have good insurance. It's just a boat.

Bottom line is you have to be responsible and know YOUR limits. Watch the weather and do not take chances you don't feel comfortable with. Most bad weather is predicted well and there is little room for excuses if you get caught in it unknowingly. The safest captains do not take unnecessary risks and always does his homework. I have violated my own rules to get on the fish and have been lucky but I never go off shore without knowing what the possible risks are and try to minimize them.

 

[Phil]

>Just for humor I have to comment. There are many major flaws in your Parker/Surfboard comparison and the one major one is the SKEG. The skeg or skeg's of your outboards are no were near comparable to a surf board and play a vital role in keeping you in the direction you desire.

For a lack of a big skeg, the Parker has a steering wheel with 200+hp power to keep her in the direction you desire. Are you saying that the surfboard is a safer design than a traditional boat? How many surfboard have made ocean crossings?


>Bottom line is you have to be responsible and know YOUR limits.

How do you know your limits unless you test the margins of your limits?

 

[MaxOut]

Good homework there "fishfactory" :wink: My point is " In my opinion" there is better ways to spend $5000.00 to make your boat safer as listed above and good judgement is free. The best saftey equipment never gets used. A call on a Sat phone will get you to shore quicker than a 10hp kicker. A helicopter flies at 200 mph

 

[MaxOut]

>Just for humor I have to comment. There are many major flaws in your Parker/Surfboard comparison and the one major one is the SKEG. The skeg or skeg's of your outboards are no were near comparable to a surf board and play a vital role in keeping you in the direction you desire.

For a lack of a big skeg, the Parker has a steering wheel with 200+hp power to keep her in the direction you desire. Are you saying that the surfboard is a safer design than a traditional boat? How many surfboard have made ocean crossings?

>Bottom line is you have to be responsible and know YOUR limits.

How do you know your limits unless you test the margins of your limits?

What I am saying is a surfboard's form and function is so physically different than a Parker that no logical comparison can be made as it concerns riding waves, and I would rather be on a surfboard in 50' breaking waves heading towards shore. Believe it or not surfers reach speeds even your 200+ horsepower Parker can't keep up with. You can shift your weight on a surf board in a flash altering your attitude fore and aft and you can't do that with even a 1000HP Parker.

I didn't know you were considering crossing the ocean on a surf board. I would recommend a wind surfer and you might have a chance. When you are out testing the margins make sure you are alone. If you go looking for trouble you will find it. Most people know there limits and do not need to go looking for them. Some people have no fear and they will find the Parker has its limits even though they don't. That's why they say "Respect the Lady" lack of respect and good judgment will find you in your margin or beyond.

Must be raining everywere today or we would probably be fishing.

 

[TheOtherLine]

Good homework there "fishfactory" :wink: My point is " In my opinion" there is better ways to spend $5000.00 to make your boat safer as listed above and good judgement is free. The best saftey equipment never gets used. A call on a Sat phone will get you to shore quicker than a 10hp kicker. A helicopter flies at 200 mph

The purpose of a kicker is to just get you home when the main engine fails, period. No one expects a kicker to help you navigate through horrific weather when your main fails.

While a SAT phone may get your person home quicker in an emergency, I don't think that copter is going to tow your boat to land and I don't think a towing service is going to tow it much faster that 6-9 knots.

The $5,000 spent on keeping you alive has very little to do with the intended purpose of a kicker.

Having said that. I am fortunate enough to have both.