Permatrim Bolts Breaking.

[12Parker2320]

Good question. Top mount.

If I read this post correctly you have the wrong permatrim for a 250. Went through this exact issue that started with bolts coming loose and culminated with my av plate cracking. Previous owner had installed the wrong permatrim on my 4.2 F250 (top mount). Called permatrim and confirmed anything 200+ hp for yamaha needs the bottom mount permatrim. Most importantly they instructed me to apply a liberal amount of the 4200 they supplied to prevent vibration and make a solid seal. Don’t just apply around mounting holes in other words. After welding my av plate and prepping it I mounted the correct bottom mount plate as instructed and it has been flawless thus far with even better performance than before. Check out my pics below

 

[Bodick93]

If these permatrim units are snapping mounting bolts, have any of you fans of these devices considered the additional stress that you’re putting on the engine bracket, trim cylinders or the boat transom by installing and running them on your engines?
I get uncomfortable just thinking about the forces ya’ll are introducing to the engine mounting bracket, trim cylinders and boat transom, that I can’t imagine that any of them are designed to absorb by mounting these after market fins on your engines.

More force than 300 horsepower of forward thrust and 600 vertical pounds can supply? Permatrims lift the stern. That's why the top mounted ones break the rear bolt.
I'm okay with the bottom mounts. As far as confirmation bias, I took mine off not long ago to re-evaluate and make sure I gave the Rev 4 a proper test, as I installed the PT just a few weeks after the Rev 4. Liked the way it ran with it on better, so I reinstalled it.
In retrospect, I could have just as easily done wider trim tabs and the Rev4 and probably been happier.

 

[Cman60]

If these permatrim units are snapping mounting bolts, have any of you fans of these devices considered the additional stress that you’re putting on the engine bracket, trim cylinders or the boat transom by installing and running them on your engines?

I’m in my 17th season with the same Parker 2520SL and am currently running a 2019 Suzuki DF300APXX with 770+ hours after putting 1800+ on my previous engine a Yamaha F225. If I add in all the drift fishing and dive operations I’ve done with the engine off, I’m sure that I have over 10,000 hours being aboard my Parker April-November in the Northeast . I operate almost 100% of the time in open ocean and my typical fishing trip almost always results in 10+ hours of engine run time. Aside from the .5 leaving my marina and the .5 returning to my marina all the rest is open Ocean operation. This past Wednesday, I was 50 miles offshore as most of my fishing trips take me this time of year . I can always over trim the boat for conditions using the trim tabs and have never considered drilling holes in a $25,000+ engine to mount an aftermarket fin on it and have been both shocked and amazed that anyone else would BUT “snapping bolts” YIKES !

I get uncomfortable just thinking about the forces ya’ll are introducing to the engine mounting bracket, trim cylinders and boat transom, that I can’t imagine that any of them are designed to absorb by mounting these after market fins on your engines.

Apology in advance, I think ya’ll are nuts to drill holes in you engines to put one of these things on in the first place and then to keep ‘em on when they’re introducing so much additional force that they’re snapping mounting bolts and in other threads I’ve read reports of the lower units cracking in the areas these “permatrims” are bolted to.

Confirmation bias seems to run strong amongst permatrim fans, just hoping I can dissuade at least 1 person from mutilating his lower unit with one of these devices………

What he said

 

[Tunify]

Yeah, they do, and with a normal Phillips head screw that’s a tall order to get them there.

I sent an email off to Permatrim questioning the 10 ft-lbs torque specification in their installation instructions. I will post any reply.

 

[pelagic2530]

If these permatrim units are snapping mounting bolts, have any of you fans of these devices considered the additional stress that you’re putting on the engine bracket, trim cylinders or the boat transom by installing and running them on your engines?

I’m in my 17th season with the same Parker 2520SL and am currently running a 2019 Suzuki DF300APXX with 770+ hours after putting 1800+ on my previous engine a Yamaha F225. If I add in all the drift fishing and dive operations I’ve done with the engine off, I’m sure that I have over 10,000 hours being aboard my Parker April-November in the Northeast . I operate almost 100% of the time in open ocean and my typical fishing trip almost always results in 10+ hours of engine run time. Aside from the .5 leaving my marina and the .5 returning to my marina all the rest is open Ocean operation. This past Wednesday, I was 50 miles offshore as most of my fishing trips take me this time of year . I can always over trim the boat for conditions using the trim tabs and have never considered drilling holes in a $25,000+ engine to mount an aftermarket fin on it and have been both shocked and amazed that anyone else would BUT “snapping bolts” YIKES !

I get uncomfortable just thinking about the forces ya’ll are introducing to the engine mounting bracket, trim cylinders and boat transom, that I can’t imagine that any of them are designed to absorb by mounting these after market fins on your engines.

Apology in advance, I think ya’ll are nuts to drill holes in you engines to put one of these things on in the first place and then to keep ‘em on when they’re introducing so much additional force that they’re snapping mounting bolts and in other threads I’ve read reports of the lower units cracking in the areas these “permatrims” are bolted to.

Confirmation bias seems to run strong amongst permatrim fans, just hoping I can dissuade at least 1 person from mutilating his lower unit with one of these devices………

Other than one case of a cracked AV plate, which was attributed to the fact that the wrong plate was installed, I’m unfamiliar with any evidence that these plates are causing any sort of stress damage to either the outboard or the vessel. If you have any actual experience with this, other than what you “think” about the stresses they’re imposing, I’m sure we’d love to hear about it.

Doubt that there’s a comprehensive study, but it’s not like you frequently see permatrim outboards blowing through hydraulic T/T units at an unusually high rate. Nor is there any evidence of any other excessive wear on outboard components. Again, if you know of something I don’t, I’d be happy to be proven wrong. The bolts snapping is caused by an incorrect torque spec; for bolts tightened appropriately I’m not aware of any snapping issues.

As far as damage to the transom goes, that’s pretty much laughable. Thinking that the mounting bracket that is engineered to transfer all of the forces from the whole outboard to the transom is going to be seriously affected by some additional trim force in its mid-range just doesn’t make sense. If you’re not running the engine flat out in full up/down trim all the time, then the force produced by the permatrim is going to be well within the design criteria for the engine mounting.

As far as “mutilating” an engine goes… it’s an engine, not a piece of fine art. If installing a permatrim increases the performance of the engine installation, drilling some holes to mount it is a small price to pay and adversely impacts the engine not at all, if done correctly. And if you decide to pull the plate off at a later date, you’ve got the exact same engine, with some holes in a non-critical area that in no way will by themselves lead to any kind of premature failure. Big deal.

I agree that trim tabs are a better way of controlling the boats trim 90% of the time, but they’re not practical in many cases. Permatrims work for what they’re designed to do; most people who have actually installed and used them will tell you that. Positive operational feedback from the majority of users is hardly “confirmation bias”; it’s evidence that they actually WORK. Permatrims are a product, not a cult.

All that said, feel free to not install one on your boat if you don’t want or need one. But acting like you’re saving the unwary from inflicting catastrophic damage on their boat, amidst a sea of positive product feedback, is ridiculous.

 

[Tunify]

Response from tech service at Permatrim. Apparently, Andrew Manuo works on Sundays.





Andrew,
The two outboard bolts holding the Permatrim to my F300 Yamaha recently failed below the screw heads, The threaded shafts, nuts and washers remained in place held by the adhesive sealant. The fracture site appears to be a classic tensile overload failure. I assume these bolts were over torqued at installation. I did not perform the install so I have no idea how the bolts were tightened. No big deal. I installed two new fasteners and took care to not overtighten them. Problem solved.

I have since become aware of a number of other Permatrim users encountering the same broken bolt issues. It seems that the Permatrim installation instructions available online "Permatrim Installation (permatrims.com)" call for a tightening torque of 10 ft-lbs. This appears to be considerably above published torque values for 1/4-20, 316 stainless bolts. Most tables list the maximum torque at approximately 6 ft-lbs. Is there something special about the Permatrim bolts that I am not aware of? If this is not the case, perhaps the install instructions should be revised.

Please respond.

Regards,
Dan Bumcrot

8:57 AM (1 hour ago)
to me

Hi Dan,

I personally have never used a torque wrench on those. Once the two plates touch each other, it doesn’t take much more tightening. It doesn’t take much extra force to twist a ¼’ bolt. I will make the changes there on the site and remove the 10ft lbs.

If you need us to send you more hardware we can do that.

Thanks

Andy

Andrew Munao Jr Yamaha/Mercury Sales-Tech Support 888-231-2392 | Text 888-231-2392 | [email protected] simyamaha.com - simmercury.com

 

[Mpellet]

I agree that trim tabs are a better way of controlling the boats trim 90% of the time,

I’ll use your word choice to describe most of your response and deem it as ridiculous, however I did find some merit in what you wrote quoted above. Equip the boat with the correct propeller and load the cockpit with an eye towards proper weight distribution and you can make the 90% a 100% without the need to even think about a confirmation bias I mean a permatrim.

You want to feel good about mutilating your outboard and encouraging others to do the same have at it but my opinion and experience says otherwise. There isn’t a damn thing drilling holes in your lower unit and putting a bolt snapping and metal breaking fin on it will accomplish that can’t be achieved with the correct propeller, proper technique using the trim tabs and understanding that with a Parker Pilot House, where you put weight in the cockpit has an enormous impact on how the boat rides.

You guys drilling holes in your lower units and putting the fins on them remind me of the well meaning parents in the 1940s, who took their kid to the doctor for a behavioral issues and got talked into allowing a “doctor” to perform a lobotomy on them .

 

[A-K]

I’ll use your word choice to describe most of your response and deem it as ridiculous, however I did find some merit in what you wrote quoted above. Equip the boat with the correct propeller and load the cockpit with an eye towards proper weight distribution and you can make the 90% a 100% without the need to even think about a confirmation bias I mean a permatrim.

You want to feel good about mutilating your outboard and encouraging others to do the same have at it but my opinion and experience says otherwise. There isn’t a damn thing drilling holes in your lower unit and putting a bolt snapping and metal breaking fin on it will accomplish that can’t be achieved with the correct propeller, proper technique using the trim tabs and understanding that with a Parker Pilot House, where you put weight in the cockpit has an enormous impact on how the boat rides.

You guys drilling holes in your lower units and putting the fins on them remind me of the well meaning parents in the 1940s, who took their kid to the doctor for a behavioral issues and got talked into allowing a “doctor” to perform a lobotomy on them .

We get it you don’t approve of the permatrim install. But you need to calm down. It’s not going to crack the transom or bracket .

Lots and lots of Parker’s out there are running permatrims with a high satisfaction rate and hearing of them breaking or needing repair is very uncommon.

I put one on my Yamaha 300 and never looked back or had any problems with it. And I run and work my boat hard, in the Pacific NorthWest in the ocean just like you. Personally I have no regrets and it’s only been a positive for me.

 

[Mpellet]

We get it you don’t approve of the permatrim install. But you need to calm down. It’s not going to crack the transom or bracket .

Lots and lots of Parker’s out there are running permatrims with a high satisfaction rate and hearing of them breaking or needing repair is very uncommon.

I put one on my Yamaha 300 and never looked back or had any problems with it. And I run and work my boat hard, in the Pacific NorthWest in the ocean just like you. Personally I have no regrets and it’s only been a positive for me.

This forum is typically very friendly and it appears that I’ve hit a sensitive spot with the permatrims. I don’t want to engage in an on going pi$$ing contest and this will be my last post in this thread. My only hope is that the discussion might encourage at least one guy to fine tune their use of trim tabs, engine trim, propeller selection and cockpit loading before they permadamgne their lower unit drilling holes in order to install a completely unnecessary device(gimmick).

You guys can get back to the regularly scheduled program of permatrim praise along with sheared mounting hardware and cracked cavitation plates.

Have a great night .

 

[A-K]

This forum is typically very friendly and it appears that I’ve hit a sensitive spot with the permatrims. I don’t want to engage in an on going pi$$ing contest and this will be my last post in this thread. My only hope is that the discussion might encourage at least one guy to fine tune their use of trim tabs, engine trim, propeller selection and cockpit loading before they permadamgne their lower unit drilling holes in order to install a completely unnecessary device(gimmick).

You guys can get back to the regularly scheduled program of permatrim praise along with sheared mounting hardware and cracked cavitation plates.

Have a great night .

Pack your bags we’re going on guilt trip.

 

[pelagic2530]

This forum is typically very friendly and it appears that I’ve hit a sensitive spot with the permatrims. I don’t want to engage in an on going pi$$ing contest and this will be my last post in this thread. My only hope is that the discussion might encourage at least one guy to fine tune their use of trim tabs, engine trim, propeller selection and cockpit loading before they permadamgne their lower unit drilling holes in order to install a completely unnecessary device(gimmick).

You guys can get back to the regularly scheduled program of permatrim praise along with sheared mounting hardware and cracked cavitation plates.

Have a great night .

@Mpellet,

I understand that you’re done posting on this thread but if you’re reading this, know that I appreciate your civility and the importance you place on keeping this forum polite, which as you mentioned it normally is. I apologize for my role in contributing to any contention, and recognize that my previous points, which I stand by, could have been made in a less aggressive manner.

As a matter of record, for anyone who may find this thread in the future: nothing that Mpellet has said regarding performance is incorrect. Permatrims add additional lift to the stern of the boat. This can certainly be accomplished by the use of trim tabs if equipped, by use of a four bladed propeller, or eliminated entirely by careful loading with an eye towards reducing weight at the stern. Certainly, a permatrim is not a necessity. However, in certain cases, it’s a good option if that lift is needed and operational constraints prohibit using the other methods detailed above. In my case, using one on my 1700 made it so that installation of a complicated trim tab system, which would have needed multiple other changes in order to make it work, was not necessary to accomplish my goal of better controlling my bow angle and being able to plane at a lower speed. It’s been working great for me with no detriments.

(It is interesting to note, however, that if lift is provided via a different prop, that lift is still being provided by the overall outboard assembly and applied to the stern via the outboard mounting bracket, just as it would with a Permatrim.)

However, the issues that Mpellet has concerns over, specifically broken bolts and one case of a damaged anti ventilation plate, have been addressed: an incorrect torque spec in the former case, and an improperly mounted plate in the latter. The manufacturer has acknowledged the poor torque spec (see above post with response from the factory rep). The owner of the vessel with the broken AV plate has said that the plate was incorrectly mounted, and after completing the repair, reinstalled the plate properly. These are not persistent defects; and they are relatively uncommon. Contrast that with the many owners who are satisfied with the performance of their installations, and who have experienced no difficulties.

At the end of the day, installation of any aftermarket accessory is the choice of the individual owner and it is up to them to do the due diligence on the benefits and costs of doing so. However, I think that other than the above mentioned issues, which are easily avoided, the positives of using these plates in the right installations greatly outweighs the detriments.

That’s about all I have to say on this one.

 

[Brent]

This is a great forum with a couple of knuckleheads

 

[gman1001]

If I read this post correctly you have the wrong permatrim for a 250. Went through this exact issue that started with bolts coming loose and culminated with my av plate cracking. Previous owner had installed the wrong permatrim on my 4.2 F250 (top mount). Called permatrim and confirmed anything 200+ hp for yamaha needs the bottom mount permatrim. Most importantly they instructed me to apply a liberal amount of the 4200 they supplied to prevent vibration and make a solid seal. Don’t just apply around mounting holes in other words. After welding my av plate and prepping it I mounted the correct bottom mount plate as instructed and it has been flawless thus far with even better performance than before. Check out my pics below

I may have the wrong one, but the website and the Permatrim rep sold me this one which clearly states its for a Yamaha F250. Permatrim Hydrofoil

I do see the on the website you speak of that is bottom mount. It look like it has the anode tab cutout.

Oh well. I'm just replacing bolts constantly until I yank the boat this winter and replace with Grade 8 Bolts.

 

[12Parker2320]

I may have the wrong one, but the website and the Permatrim rep sold me this one which clearly states its for a Yamaha F250. Permatrim Hydrofoil

I do see the on the website you speak of that is bottom mount. It look like it has the anode tab cutout.

Oh well. I'm just replacing bolts constantly until I yank the boat this winter and replace with Grade 8 Bolts.

Did you go through Shipyard Island Marina? They are one of the only permatrim distributors I know of in the states, I’m sure there are others. I would order the proper permatrim before you end up with an incident like mine. All that upward thrust is pulling on your AV plate with a top mounted permatrim with your hp rating. You can use your existing mounting holes for the new permatrim. Vice grip in place the new bottom mount permatrim and mark your holes on the new plate. It’s easy to line up with the anode cut out. Make sure to apply a generous amount of 4200 as you can see on mine after the new bottom mount permatrim was installed. Just my 2 cents

 

[gman1001]

Did you go through Shipyard Island Marina? They are one of the only permatrim distributors I know of in the states, I’m sure there are others. I would order the proper permatrim before you end up with an incident like mine. All that upward thrust is pulling on your AV plate with a top mounted permatrim with your hp rating. You can use your existing mounting holes for the new permatrim. Vice grip in place the new bottom mount permatrim and mark your holes on the new plate. It’s easy to line up with the anode cut out. Make sure to apply a generous amount of 4200 as you can see on mine after the new bottom mount permatrim was installed. Just my 2 cents

I did yes. I’ve decided to do what you recommend. Tx for the tip.

 

[A-K]

This is a great forum with a couple of knuckleheads

Yes I’ll admit I’m one of those knuckleheads sometimes.



But I still like this forum.

 

[12Parker2320]

I did yes. I’ve decided to do what you recommend. Tx for the tip.

Good call you won’t regret it